Spherical Mirrors: Concave & Convex

A make-up mirror throws back a face bigger than life; the same silvered bowl, turned around, shrinks a whole room into a fist-sized dome above a shop counter. A satellite dish, a car headlamp, the giant eye of a reflecting telescope and the little mirror the dentist slips behind your teeth are all the same object as those two — a spherical mirror, a polished slice cut from a sphere. Curve the flat mirror of the last chapter, and reflection stops merely relocating an image and starts transforming it: magnifying, shrinking, flipping, and — for the first time in this book — making a real image that you can catch on a screen. This is the article that builds the machinery. Before any formula, you need the vocabulary and the geometry: the pole, the centre of curvature, the radius of curvature, the principal axis and the principal focus, and the single most useful fact about a spherical mirror — that its focal length is half its radius of curvature, f=R/2f = R/2, which we prove here from nothing but the law of reflection and a paraxial triangle. You also need a rule for signs, because a curved mirror lives on a number line and "20 cm" is useless until you say which way. The whole of India's competitive syllabus and AP Physics 2 run on the New Cartesian sign convention, stated in full below, whose two consequences you must never forget: for a concave mirror the focal length and radius come out negative, and for a convex mirror they come out positive. Get the anatomy, the f=R/2f = R/2 proof and the signs straight here, and the mirror formula in the next article becomes plug-and-play. Fumble them, and every downstream answer inherits the error. This page is the foundation the rest of the mirror chapter stands on.

Key takeaways
  • A spherical mirror is a slice of a sphere; its key points are the pole P, the centre of curvature C, the principal focus F, with radius of curvature R=PCR = PC and focal length f=PFf = PF along the principal axis.
  • Concave mirrors curve inward and converge parallel light to a real focus; convex mirrors curve outward and diverge it, so the focus is virtual.
  • f=R/2f = R/2 — the focus sits exactly halfway between pole and centre — proved by geometry for paraxial rays (rays close to and nearly parallel to the axis).
  • New Cartesian signs: distances measured from the pole, along the incident light positive, against it negative; so a real object has u<0u < 0, a concave mirror has f<0f < 0 and R<0R < 0, and a convex mirror has f>0f > 0 and R>0R > 0.
  • Ray rules: a ray parallel to the axis reflects through F; a ray through C returns on itself; a ray through F reflects parallel — any two locate the image.
  • Key idea: a spherical mirror is fully described by its pole, focus and centre of curvature with f=R/2f = R/2, and once the New Cartesian signs are fixed, two standard rays place any image and reveal whether it is real or virtual.
The core insight

A spherical mirror is characterised by its pole, centre of curvature and principal focus with f=R/2f = R/2; under the New Cartesian convention concave mirrors take f,R<0f, R < 0 and convex mirrors take f,R>0f, R > 0, and two of the three standard rays locate and classify any image.

Where this lives today

Spherical and near-spherical mirrors do the heavy lifting of modern optics. A reflecting telescope — from a backyard Newtonian to the segmented giants on mountaintops — gathers starlight on a large concave mirror, exactly Foucault's silvered glass scaled up. A car headlamp and a torch put the bulb at the focus of a concave reflector so the light leaves as a parallel beam; a satellite dish and a radio telescope do the same for radio waves, concentrating a faint parallel wavefront onto a receiver at the focus. Solar cookers and solar-thermal power towers are concave mirrors turning the parallel rays of the Sun into a blazing hot spot. On the diverging side, the passenger-side wing mirror and the convex mirrors bolted at blind corners in shops and car parks trade magnification for a wide field of view, shrinking a whole aisle or junction into one small upright image — the "objects in mirror are closer than they appear" warning is the price of that shrinking. Even a dentist's mirror is a small concave mirror, giving a magnified upright view of a tooth held inside its focus. Every one of them is f=R/2f = R/2 and the three ray rules, built at scale.

The physical picture

Imagine a hollow glass sphere, silvered, and smashed; pick up one small curved shard and polish it. That shard is a spherical mirror. If you silver the outside so the hollowed face reflects, you have a concave mirror (it caves inward, like the inside of a spoon's bowl); silver the inside so the bulging face reflects and you have a convex mirror (it bulges outward, like the back of the spoon). Every spherical mirror carries a fixed skeleton of points, and naming them is half the battle: The centre of curvature CC is the centre of the sphere the shard was cut from. The radius of curvature RR is that sphere's radius — the distance from the mirror to CC. The pole PP is the geometric centre of the mirror's own surface, the point you would touch at its middle. The straight line through PP and CC is the principal axis, the mirror's line of symmetry. And the principal focus FF, the star of the whole chapter, is the point on the axis where rays arriving parallel to the axis converge after reflection (concave) or from which they appear to diverge (convex). The distance PFPF is the focal length ff.

Figure
Anatomy of the two spherical mirrors: for the concave mirror the centre of curvature C and focus F lie in front of the pole P where the light is, while for the convex mirror they lie behind it, and in both cases the focus is halfway to the centre so f equals R over two
Concave (converging) Convex (diverging) C F P R f = R/2 P F C R F and C behind the mirror

The difference between concave and convex is entirely about which side of the mirror the interesting points fall on. For a concave mirror, CC and FF sit in front of the reflecting surface, out in the space where the light actually travels — which is why a concave mirror can gather real light to a real point and, for instance, set paper alight at its focus in sunlight. For a convex mirror, CC and FF sit behind the surface, where no light goes; the mirror spreads parallel light outward, and the focus is only the point the diverging rays appear to come from. That single geometric fact — front versus behind — is what the sign convention is about to encode as a plus or a minus.

The New Cartesian sign convention

A number like "the focal length is 20 cm" is meaningless for a curved mirror until you say on which side. The New Cartesian sign convention — the one used by CBSE, ICSE, JEE, NEET and AP Physics 2 — fixes this once and for all, and you must state it before you compute anything:

  • The pole P is the origin, and all distances are measured from the pole along the principal axis.
  • The incident light is taken to travel in the positive direction. Distances measured along the incident light (behind the mirror) are positive; distances measured against it (in front of the mirror, where a real object and the incoming light are) are negative.
  • Heights measured upward, perpendicular to the axis, are positive; downward heights are negative.

Two consequences follow immediately and must become instinct. A real object sits in front of the mirror, on the incoming-light side, so its distance is measured against the incident direction and u<0u < 0 — real objects always have negative object distance. And because a concave mirror's FF and CC lie in front of it, its focal length and radius are negative: f<0f < 0, R<0R < 0. A convex mirror's FF and CC lie behind it, so its focal length and radius are positive: f>0f > 0, R>0R > 0. Memorise the pair "concave negative, convex positive" — it is the hinge on which every mirror-formula answer in the next article turns.

f=R2(1)f = \frac{R}{2} \qquad (1)

where: ff is the focal length (PFPF) and RR the radius of curvature (PCPC), both carrying their sign. Because FF and CC are always on the same side of the pole, the sign takes care of itself: a concave mirror of R=−30 cmR = -30\ \mathrm{cm} has f=−15 cmf = -15\ \mathrm{cm}; one of R=−40 cmR = -40\ \mathrm{cm} has f=−20 cmf = -20\ \mathrm{cm}; a convex mirror of R=+30 cmR = +30\ \mathrm{cm} has f=+15 cmf = +15\ \mathrm{cm}. The relation says the focus lies exactly halfway from the pole to the centre of curvature, and it is worth proving rather than swallowing.

Figure
A ray parallel to the axis strikes the concave mirror at M; the radius CM is the normal, the angles of incidence and reflection are equal, and the reflected ray crosses the axis at F, making triangle CMF isosceles so that for paraxial rays FP equals half of CP, that is f equals R over two
C F P ray parallel to axis M normal (radius CM) reflected ray → through F CF = FM ≈ FP ⇒ PF = PC/2 ⇒ f = R/2

The three rays that locate any image

To find where a spherical mirror puts an image, you trace rays from a point on the object and see where the reflected rays meet (real image) or appear to meet (virtual image). Three rays are especially easy to draw because you already know where each goes: The parallel ray — a ray from the object travelling parallel to the axis — reflects through the focus F (concave) or reflects so that it appears to come from F (convex). The focal ray — a ray heading through F (concave) or towards F (convex) — reflects parallel to the axis; it is the parallel ray run backwards. The radial ray — a ray heading through C (concave) or towards C (convex) — strikes the mirror along a radius, hits it head-on (θi=0\theta_i = 0), and reflects straight back on itself. Any two of these three pin down the image point where they cross; the third is a check. The whole of image-finding, for the rest of the chapter, is these three rules plus the sign convention.

Figure
Concave-mirror ray diagram for an object beyond the centre of curvature: the parallel ray reflects through F and the radial ray through C returns on itself, meeting between F and C to give a real, inverted, diminished image below the axis
C F P object image object beyond C → real, inverted, diminished, between F and C

What a concave mirror does, position by position

A concave mirror is a shape-shifter: move the object along the axis and the image marches the other way, swelling, flipping and finally jumping behind the glass. The table below is the one every board expects you to know, anchored to a concave mirror of focal length f=−20 cmf = -20\ \mathrm{cm} (so FF is 20 cm20\ \mathrm{cm} in front and CC is at R=−40 cmR = -40\ \mathrm{cm}, i.e. 40 cm40\ \mathrm{cm} in front). The next two articles compute every row with the mirror formula; here we read it off the rays.

Object positionImage positionNature
at infinityat F (20 cm20\ \mathrm{cm})real, inverted, a point
beyond C (more than 40 cm40\ \mathrm{cm})between F and Creal, inverted, diminished
at C (40 cm40\ \mathrm{cm})at C (40 cm40\ \mathrm{cm})real, inverted, same size
between C and F (2020 to 40 cm40\ \mathrm{cm})beyond Creal, inverted, magnified
at F (20 cm20\ \mathrm{cm})at infinityrays parallel, no image formed
between F and P (nearer than 20 cm20\ \mathrm{cm})behind the mirrorvirtual, erect, magnified

Two features are worth burning in. First, a concave mirror gives a real, inverted image for every object beyond the focus, and only when the object comes inside the focus does the image flip to virtual, erect and magnified — that last case is the shaving or make-up mirror, where you hold your face closer than the focal length. Second, the image and object cross over at C: exactly at the centre of curvature the image is the same size, sitting right on top of C, inverted. A convex mirror, by contrast, is boringly reliable, and that is its virtue. For any real object, wherever you put it, a convex mirror forms an image that is virtual, erect and diminished, tucked between the pole and the focus behind the glass. It shrinks the whole world into a small upright picture and never makes a real image of a real object — which is exactly why it is the wide-angle mirror on every car and street corner.

Figure
Convex-mirror ray diagram: the parallel ray reflects as if from F behind the mirror and the ray aimed at C returns on itself, so their backward extensions meet behind the mirror to form a virtual, erect, diminished image between P and F
P F C object image any real object → virtual, erect, diminished, between P and F
Derivation AWhy the focal length is half the radius of curvature

The relation f=R/2f = R/2 is the backbone of every mirror calculation, so it deserves a proof and not a memory slot. The goal is to show that for paraxial rays — rays close to and nearly parallel to the axis, the only ones a spherical mirror focuses cleanly — the principal focus sits exactly halfway between the pole and the centre of curvature. The tool is a single ray, the law of reflection, and the fact that the radius drawn to any point of a sphere is perpendicular to the surface there, so it is the normal.

Step 1. Take a concave mirror with pole PP and centre of curvature CC, and send in one ray parallel to the axis, striking the mirror at a point MM a small height above the axis. After reflection this ray crosses the axis at the focus FF; that crossing is what we want to locate.

Step 2. Draw the normal at MM. Because MM lies on a sphere centred at CC, the radius CMCM is perpendicular to the surface — so CMCM is the normal. Let the angle of incidence, between the incident ray and CMCM, be θ\theta. By the law of reflection the angle of reflection is also θ\theta.

Step 3. Find two equal angles in triangle CMFCMF. The incident ray is parallel to the axis PCPC, and CMCM is a transversal cutting them, so the angle MCFMCF (at CC, between CMCM and the axis) equals the angle of incidence θ\theta by alternate angles. The angle FMCFMC (at MM, between the reflected ray MFMF and the normal CMCM) is the angle of reflection, also θ\theta. Triangle CMFCMF therefore has equal angles at CC and MM, which makes it isosceles with the two opposite sides equal: FC=FMFC = FM.

Step 4. Now use the paraxial condition. For a ray close to the axis, MM is very near the pole PP, so the distance FMFM is very nearly FPFP. Combined with Step 3 this gives FC≈FPFC \approx FP — the focus is equidistant from CC and from PP, so it is their midpoint. Hence PF=12PCPF = \tfrac{1}{2}PC, that is f=R/2f = R/2. Concretely, a mirror of R=−30 cmR = -30\ \mathrm{cm} focuses at f=−15 cmf = -15\ \mathrm{cm}; one of R=−40 cmR = -40\ \mathrm{cm} at f=−20 cmf = -20\ \mathrm{cm}; a convex R=+30 cmR = +30\ \mathrm{cm} gives f=+15 cmf = +15\ \mathrm{cm}. Rays far from the axis miss this common point slightly — that failure is called spherical aberration, and it is why big telescopes use a parabola, not a sphere. Verified: f=R/2f = R/2 for R=−30,−40,+30R = -30, -40, +30 cm, and the paraxial focus found by direct geometric reflection converging to R/2R/2, are recomputed in verify_hs2-spherical-mirrors.py.

Limiting cases

CaseResultMeaning
R→∞R \to \inftyf→∞f \to \inftya nearly flat mirror is a plane mirror — no focusing
concave, object at infinityimage at F, realparallel sunlight burns paper at the focus
concave, object inside Fvirtual, erect, magnifiedthe shaving and make-up mirror
concave, object at Cimage at C, same size, invertedobject and image coincide at the centre of curvature
convex, any real objectvirtual, erect, diminishedthe wide-angle car and shop mirror
ray far from axismisses F slightlyspherical aberration — paraxial rule breaks down

Worked examples

Board level — focal length and the mirror's skeleton (CBSE and ICSE pattern)

A concave mirror has a radius of curvature of 30 cm, and a convex mirror has a radius of curvature of 30 cm. For each, find the focal length in the New Cartesian convention and state where the focus and centre of curvature lie relative to the mirror.

Step 1. Assign signs from the convention before touching a number. For the concave mirror, CC and FF are in front of the reflecting surface, on the incoming-light side, so distances there are negative: R=−30 cmR = -30\ \mathrm{cm}. For the convex mirror they are behind, so R=+30 cmR = +30\ \mathrm{cm}.

Step 2. Apply f=R/2f = R/2. Concave: f=−30/2=−15 cmf = -30/2 = \boxed{-15\ \mathrm{cm}}. Convex: f=+30/2=+15 cmf = +30/2 = \boxed{+15\ \mathrm{cm}}. The magnitudes are equal; only the signs differ, and the signs are the physics.

Step 3. State the geometry, which is what the "and where" is asking for. The concave mirror's focus is 15 cm15\ \mathrm{cm} in front of the pole and its centre of curvature 30 cm30\ \mathrm{cm} in front. The convex mirror's focus is 15 cm15\ \mathrm{cm} behind the pole and its centre of curvature 30 cm30\ \mathrm{cm} behind — points that no light ever reaches, which is why the convex focus is virtual.

Competitive level — locate the image by rays, two positions (JEE and NEET pattern)

A concave mirror has focal length 20 cm (so F is 20 cm in front and C is 40 cm in front). Using only ray tracing, describe the image when the object is placed (a) at 60 cm from the mirror, and (b) at 30 cm from the mirror.

Step 1. For part (a), the object at 60 cm60\ \mathrm{cm} is beyond C (CC at 40 cm40\ \mathrm{cm}). Draw the parallel ray from the object's tip: it reflects through F. Draw the radial ray through C: it returns on itself. The two reflected rays cross between F and C, below the axis.

Step 2. Read off the nature for (a). The rays actually cross in front of the mirror, so the image is real; it is below the axis, so inverted; and it is shorter than the object, so diminished. This is the general rule for any object beyond C, and it is how a shaving mirror held at arm's length shows a small upside-down room. (The mirror formula in the next article makes this the exact anchor v=−30 cmv = -30\ \mathrm{cm}, m=−0.5m = -0.5.)

Step 3. For part (b), the object at 30 cm30\ \mathrm{cm} is between C and F. Draw the parallel ray (reflects through F) and the focal ray through F (reflects parallel to the axis). They cross beyond C, below the axis.

Step 4. Read off the nature for (b): the rays cross in front, so real; below the axis, so inverted; and taller than the object, so magnified. Moving the object from beyond C to inside C has swung the image from diminished to magnified, with the crossover exactly at C. (Formula anchor: v=−60 cmv = -60\ \mathrm{cm}, m=−2m = -2.) Timing note: about two minutes for both. The speed trick is to memorise the six-row table so that "beyond C" instantly means "real, inverted, diminished, between F and C" without drawing — then the ray diagram is only a confirmation, not the whole labour.

Exam traps

Writing f=Rf = R instead of f=R/2f = R/2. The commonest slip on this topic across every board. The focus is halfway to the centre of curvature. A radius of 30 cm30\ \mathrm{cm} gives a focal length of 15 cm15\ \mathrm{cm}, not 30 cm30\ \mathrm{cm}.

Getting the sign of ff backwards. Concave means f<0f < 0; convex means f>0f > 0 — in the New Cartesian convention that CBSE, ICSE, JEE, NEET and AP Physics 2 all use. Some older ICSE and A-Level texts use a "real-is-positive" convention where a concave focal length is written positive; if your textbook does, name which convention you are in and stay in it, but the modern default and the one these boards mark to is New Cartesian.

Claiming a convex mirror makes a real image. It never does, for a real object — the image is always virtual, erect and diminished. A convex mirror cannot burn paper, cannot project onto a screen, and cannot magnify.

Board scope. Curved mirrors are on CBSE, ICSE, JEE Main, JEE Advanced, NEET, AP Physics 2 (Unit 13, Geometric Optics), IGCSE and A-Level. Note carefully: IB dropped geometric optics from its guide, so spherical mirrors are not on either IB SL or IB HL — if you are an IB candidate this is enrichment, not exam material. IGCSE treats spherical mirrors qualitatively (the ray rules and the image types), while JEE and NEET want the full quantitative treatment that the next two articles provide.

Origins · 1 minLéon Foucault and how this was discovered
LF
Léon Foucault
1819–1868 · Paris

Foucault was the great experimentalist of light and motion. He is famous for the 1851 pendulum that made the Earth's rotation visible in a Paris hall, but his optical work is why he anchors this page. He perfected the technique of depositing a thin, brilliant layer of silver onto polished glass, replacing the tarnish-prone speculum metal of earlier reflectors — the reason essentially every telescope mirror since is silvered (or aluminised) glass. In 1862 he used a rapidly rotating mirror, refining a method of Fizeau and Wheatstone, to measure the speed of light in the laboratory, obtaining about 298000 km/s — within a fraction of a percent of the modern value, and low enough to show that light travels slower in water than in air, a decisive verdict for the wave theory. Concave mirrors were, quite literally, his instrument.

History
1021
— Ibn al-Haytham analyses concave and convex mirrors and the burning-mirror problem in the Book of Optics.
1611
— Johannes Kepler, in Dioptrice, sets out the real-versus-virtual image distinction that classifies mirror images.
1663
— James Gregory, in Optica Promota, designs a reflecting telescope built from two concave mirrors.
1668
— Isaac Newton builds the first working reflecting telescope, using a concave primary mirror.
1862
— Léon Foucault measures the speed of light with a rotating mirror and pioneers silvered-glass concave mirrors.

Going further

Texts. NCERT Science Class 10, Ch. 10 ("Light — Reflection and Refraction"), spherical mirrors and ray diagrams · NCERT Physics Class 12, Ch. 9 ("Ray Optics and Optical Instruments"), reflection by spherical mirrors · H. C. Verma, Concepts of Physics Vol. 1, "Geometrical Optics" · Cambridge A-Level 9702 and IGCSE 0625 on curved reflectors.

Provenance. Standard geometric optics. Recompute: f=R/2f = R/2 for R=−30→−15R = -30 \to -15, R=−40→−20R = -40 \to -20, R=+30→+15R = +30 \to +15 cm; the centre of curvature at R=2fR = 2f (concave f=−20→R=−40f = -20 \to R = -40); the paraxial focus of a parallel ray found by direct reflection off the sphere converging to R/2R/2; the concave image-table anchors previewed in the worked example, u=−60→v=−30u = -60 \to v = -30, m=−0.5m = -0.5 and u=−30→v=−60u = -30 \to v = -60, m=−2m = -2; the convex case f=+15f = +15, u=−20→v=+8.571u = -20 \to v = +8.571; and Foucault's 298000 km/s298000\ \mathrm{km/s} within one percent of the modern 299792 km/s299792\ \mathrm{km/s}.

Prerequisites. Plane Mirrors and Image Formation — the flat limit of this chapter — and The Ray Model of Light and Laws of Reflection, whose single law is applied here point by point along a curved surface. Leads to. The Mirror Formula and Sign Convention, which turns this geometry into the equation 1/v+1/u=1/f1/v + 1/u = 1/f, and Magnification by Mirrors, which quantifies the size and orientation.

Go deeper (UG). The full treatment of curved-mirror imaging, including spherical aberration, the parabolic mirror and the wave-optics limits on resolution, is developed in Plane and Spherical Mirrors in the university optics track. It is enrichment only; every result on this page follows from the law of reflection and paraxial geometry, and no exam here will ask for the aberration theory.

What exactly is the difference between the pole, the focus and the centre of curvature?

They are three different points on the axis, easy to confuse. The pole P is the middle of the mirror's own surface — the point you would touch at its centre. The centre of curvature C is the centre of the imaginary sphere the mirror was cut from, a distance RR (the radius) away. The focus F sits exactly halfway between them, a distance f=R/2f = R/2 from the pole, and it is where parallel rays converge (concave) or seem to diverge from (convex). So along the axis you meet, in order from the mirror, the pole, then the focus at R/2R/2, then the centre of curvature at RR. Keeping their order straight — P, then F, then C — is most of what image-finding needs.

Why is a concave mirror focal length negative and a convex one positive?

Because of where each mirror's focus physically sits, read through the New Cartesian convention. That convention measures distances from the pole and calls the direction against the incoming light — the region in front of the mirror, where a real object and the light both are — negative. A concave mirror's focus lies in front of it, in that negative region, so f<0f < 0. A convex mirror's focus lies behind it, on the positive side where no light goes, so f>0f > 0. The signs are not arbitrary labels; they encode which side of the mirror the focus is on, and that is exactly the information the mirror formula needs to place the image correctly.

Can a convex mirror ever form a real image?

Not of a real object — never. A convex mirror diverges every ray that reflects off it, so the reflected rays spread apart and can only be traced backwards to an apparent meeting point behind the glass; that makes the image virtual, erect and diminished, always. The only way to coax a real image from a convex mirror is to feed it converging light (rays already heading towards a point behind it), which does not happen with an ordinary glowing or lit object. So for every exam scenario with a real object in front of a convex mirror, the answer is the same three words: virtual, erect, diminished.

What does "paraxial" mean and why does the f = R/2 proof need it?

"Paraxial" means close to the axis and nearly parallel to it — rays that strike the mirror only a small height above the pole and at small angles. The proof of f=R/2f = R/2 needs it because it replaces the distance FMFM (from the focus to the actual reflection point) with FPFP (from the focus to the pole), and those are equal only when the reflection point MM is close to the pole. Rays that hit the mirror far from the axis reflect to slightly different points and blur the focus — a defect called spherical aberration. This is why a spherical mirror focuses cleanly only near its axis, and why telescope makers switch to a parabolic surface, which focuses parallel rays to a single point exactly, at any height.

How is a spherical mirror different from a plane mirror?

A plane mirror is the flat limit of a spherical one — take the radius of curvature to infinity and the focus goes to infinity too, so parallel rays stay parallel and there is no focusing. That is why a plane mirror always gives the same virtual, erect, same-size image and cannot magnify, shrink, or make a real image. A spherical mirror, having a finite radius, bends parallel rays to a focus (concave) or spreads them (convex), so it can change the image's size and, for a concave mirror, make a real image you can catch on a screen. Everything a plane mirror does is the R→∞R \to \infty corner of what a curved mirror does.

Which sign convention should I actually use in my exam?

Use the New Cartesian convention unless your specific textbook and board tell you otherwise — it is the standard for CBSE, ICSE, JEE, NEET and AP Physics 2, and it is the one this article and the next two are written in. In it, real objects have u<0u < 0, concave mirrors have f<0f < 0 and convex mirrors have f>0f > 0. A few older ICSE and A-Level texts use the "real-is-positive" convention, where a concave focal length is written as a positive number; if you are following such a book, state clearly which convention you are using at the top of your working and be consistent. The danger is mixing the two mid-problem, which flips signs and wrecks the answer. Pick one, declare it, stay in it.

Before this

Where this leads