The Epsilon Characterization of Suprema

Suppose someone hands you a nonempty, bounded-above set of real numbers. They claim a particular number MM is its supremum. How would you check this, in practice? Checking that MM is an upper bound is usually routine. But checking that MM is the least upper bound is harder. You must confirm no smaller number works. This looks like it requires comparing MM against every other upper bound. That is an unmanageable task. The epsilon characterization of suprema resolves this. It replaces the awkward universal quantifier over "all upper bounds." Instead, it gives a concrete, checkable condition. This condition involves elements of the set getting arbitrarily close to MM. This reformulation matters because it is the tool actually used, over and over, throughout analysis. Nearly every proof that a particular limit, derivative, or bound equals a specific value ends the same way. The argument takes the shape "given ε>0\varepsilon > 0, find an element of the set within ε\varepsilon of MM." The abstract existence of suprema is guaranteed by the Completeness Axiom. That axiom tells you that a least upper bound exists. The epsilon criterion tells you how to certify that a candidate number is that supremum. It is the engine behind convergence proofs, the construction of integrals, and density arguments. The big picture is that completeness of R\mathbb{R} is an existence statement. The epsilon criterion converts it into a working statement. It is a piece of machinery you can actually turn the crank on. Once you have it, verifying that sup⁡S=M\sup S = M becomes a two-step routine. First, show MM is an upper bound. Then show no room exists below MM. Do this by producing, for each ε>0\varepsilon>0, an element of SS past M−εM - \varepsilon. This article states and proves the epsilon characterization of suprema, with its mirror statement for infima. It builds the intuition with a picture of a shrinking gap. It works through two nontrivial examples. It shows exactly what breaks if you drop a hypothesis. It closes by connecting the idea forward to the Archimedean Property and the Density of the Rationals in the Reals. Both of these lean on this exact technique.

Key takeaways
  • A number MM is sup⁡S\sup S iff (i) MM is an upper bound, and (ii) for every ε>0\varepsilon>0 some s∈Ss\in S satisfies s>M−εs>M-\varepsilon.
  • Condition (ii) says: no matter how thin a margin you leave below MM, the set still reaches into it.
  • This turns "least upper bound" (a comparison against all upper bounds) into a concrete, constructive test.
  • The mirror version characterizes infima: m=inf⁡Sm=\inf S iff mm is a lower bound and for every ε>0\varepsilon>0 some s∈Ss\in S satisfies s<m+εs<m+\varepsilon.
  • The criterion requires SS nonempty; for the empty set every real number is (vacuously) an upper bound and the statement fails.
  • It is the direct ancestor of the Archimedean Property and of density arguments like the Density of the Rationals in the Reals.
  • Key idea: being the least upper bound is equivalent to having set-elements infiltrating every neighborhood just below you.

Where this lives today

The epsilon characterization of the supremum is not a museum piece; it is the load-bearing technique behind much of analysis and its applications.

  • Limits and convergence proofs. Whenever a proof shows lim⁡n→∞an=L\lim_{n\to\infty} a_n = L by producing, for each ε>0\varepsilon>0, an index NN with ∣an−L∣<ε|a_n - L|<\varepsilon for n≥Nn\ge N, the underlying logical shape is identical to the epsilon criterion here; monotone bounded sequences converge to their supremum precisely by this argument.
  • Riemann and Lebesgue integration. The Riemann integral is defined via suprema of lower sums and infima of upper sums; proving two such quantities are equal, or computing them, is done by producing partitions whose sums fall within ε\varepsilon of the claimed value — a direct instance of the epsilon criterion.
  • Optimization and variational problems. In showing a claimed optimal value is truly the extremum (e.g., in convex optimization, calculus of variations, or numerical analysis), one certifies optimality by exhibiting feasible points or sequences approaching the bound arbitrarily closely.
  • Metric space and functional analysis. The notion of the distance from a point to a set, d(x,S)=inf⁡s∈Sd(x,s)d(x,S) = \inf_{s\in S} d(x,s), and best-approximation problems in normed spaces, are analyzed via the epsilon criterion to show a candidate distance is genuinely minimal.
  • Computer science and numerical methods. Algorithms that compute approximate suprema/infima (e.g., in linear programming relaxations, machine learning loss-bound arguments, or root-finding via bisection) implicitly rely on the same "arbitrarily close" certification to argue correctness and convergence rates.
  • Probability and statistics. Essential suprema of random variables and tight concentration bounds are established by producing events of small but positive probability arbitrarily close to the claimed bound, mirroring this exact structure.

Ask the tutor: Can you show me why the Archimedean Property itself needs this exact epsilon argument to prove?

DefinitionSupremum, restated with the epsilon test in view

Let S⊆RS \subseteq \mathbb{R} be nonempty and bounded above. A real number MM is the supremum of SS, written M=sup⁡SM = \sup S, if: 1. MM is an upper bound for SS: s≤Ms \le M for all s∈Ss \in S; and 2. MM is the least such upper bound: if M′M' is any upper bound for SS, then M≤M′M \le M'. The epsilon characterization reformulates condition (2) as: 2'. For every ε>0\varepsilon > 0, there exists s∈Ss \in S with s>M−εs > M - \varepsilon. The claim of this article is that (1)+(2) holds if and only if (1)+(2') holds — that is, (2) and (2') are logically equivalent given (1). The analogous statement for the infimum replaces (2) with: for every ε>0\varepsilon>0 there exists s∈Ss\in S with s<m+εs < m+\varepsilon.

Intuition

Picture the real line with the set SS scattered along it, bounded above, and a candidate ceiling MM sitting above all of it. The condition "MM is an upper bound" says nothing can poke out above MM. The subtlety is how tight a ceiling MM is. If you could slide the ceiling down a little — say to M−δM - \delta for some fixed δ>0\delta > 0 — and still have every point of SS underneath, then MM was not the least upper bound; M−δM - \delta (or something between) works too. The epsilon criterion is precisely the denial of this possibility, quantified over all conceivable gap sizes at once. It says: for every proposed gap ε>0\varepsilon>0, however small, the set SS has a point living inside the strip (M−ε,M](M-\varepsilon, M]. If even one ε0>0\varepsilon_0>0 failed — meaning no point of SS exceeds M−ε0M - \varepsilon_0 — then M−ε0M-\varepsilon_0 itself would be a smaller upper bound, contradicting leastness. So the criterion is not an approximation of leastness; it is leastness, restated so you can act on it. The picture to hold in mind is a sequence of shrinking windows just below MM, each of which must be hit by SS.

Figure
The epsilon-window just below the supremum must always contain a point of SS
0 s∈S M = sup S width = ε M − ε S accumulates toward M from below; every window (M−ε, M] catches a point

Theorem and proof

TheoremThe Epsilon Characterization of the Supremum

Let S⊆RS \subseteq \mathbb{R} be nonempty and bounded above, and let M∈RM \in \mathbb{R} be an upper bound for SS. Then

M=sup⁡S⟺for every ε>0 there exists s∈S with s>M−ε.M = \sup S \quad \Longleftrightarrow \quad \text{for every } \varepsilon > 0 \text{ there exists } s \in S \text{ with } s > M - \varepsilon.
Proof

We prove the two directions separately. Throughout, MM is assumed to be an upper bound for SS, so we only need to relate the leastness of MM to the epsilon condition. The technique in both directions is proof by contrapositive, which converts a universally-quantified approximation statement into a clean comparison of two real numbers.

(⇒\Rightarrow) Suppose M=sup⁡SM = \sup S. We show the epsilon condition holds. Let ε>0\varepsilon > 0 be arbitrary. Since ε>0\varepsilon > 0, we have M−ε<MM - \varepsilon < M. We claim M−εM-\varepsilon cannot be an upper bound for SS. Indeed, suppose toward contradiction that M−εM - \varepsilon were an upper bound for SS. Then M−εM-\varepsilon is a real number that bounds SS above, and M−ε<MM - \varepsilon < M. But M=sup⁡SM = \sup S means MM is the least upper bound, i.e. M≤M′M \le M' for every upper bound M′M' of SS. Taking M′=M−εM' = M-\varepsilon gives M≤M−εM \le M - \varepsilon, i.e. 0≤−ε0 \le -\varepsilon, i.e. ε≤0\varepsilon \le 0. This contradicts ε>0\varepsilon > 0. Hence M−εM - \varepsilon is not an upper bound for SS. By definition of upper bound, "not an upper bound" means: there exists some s∈Ss \in S with s>M−εs > M - \varepsilon (the negation of "s≤M−εs \le M-\varepsilon for all s∈Ss\in S" is exactly "there exists s∈Ss \in S with s>M−εs > M - \varepsilon"). This is precisely the epsilon condition, and since ε>0\varepsilon>0 was arbitrary, it holds for every ε>0\varepsilon > 0.

(⇐\Leftarrow) Suppose MM is an upper bound for SS and the epsilon condition holds. We show M=sup⁡SM = \sup S. We already know MM is an upper bound (given). It remains to show MM is the least upper bound, i.e. that M≤M′M \le M' for every upper bound M′M' of SS. We argue by contradiction. Suppose there is an upper bound M′M' of SS with M′<MM' < M. Set

ε0:=M−M′.\varepsilon_0 := M - M'.

Since M′<MM' < M, we have ε0>0\varepsilon_0 > 0. Apply the epsilon condition with this specific ε0\varepsilon_0: there exists s∈Ss \in S with

s>M−ε0=M−(M−M′)=M′.s > M - \varepsilon_0 = M - (M - M') = M'.

So s>M′s > M' for this particular s∈Ss \in S. But M′M' is an upper bound for SS, so by definition s≤M′s \le M' for every s∈Ss \in S — in particular for this ss. This gives s≤M′s \le M' and s>M′s > M' simultaneously, a contradiction. Therefore no upper bound M′<MM' < M exists; every upper bound M′M' of SS satisfies M′≥MM' \ge M, i.e. M≤M′M \le M'. Combined with MM being an upper bound, this shows MM is the least upper bound, i.e. M=sup⁡SM = \sup S. Both directions are established, so the equivalence holds. ■\blacksquare

∎
CorollaryThe Epsilon Characterization of the Infimum

Let S⊆RS \subseteq \mathbb{R} be nonempty and bounded below, and let m∈Rm \in \mathbb{R} be a lower bound for SS. Then

m=inf⁡S⟺for every ε>0 there exists s∈S with s<m+ε.m = \inf S \quad \Longleftrightarrow \quad \text{for every } \varepsilon > 0 \text{ there exists } s \in S \text{ with } s < m + \varepsilon.
Proof

Apply the theorem to the reflected set −S:={−s:s∈S}-S := \{-s : s \in S\}, using the standard identity inf⁡S=−sup⁡(−S)\inf S = -\sup(-S), which itself follows because xx is a lower bound for SS if and only if −x-x is an upper bound for −S-S (multiplying an inequality s≥xs \ge x by −1-1 reverses it to −s≤−x-s \le -x, and this correspondence is a bijection between lower bounds of SS and upper bounds of −S-S). Concretely: mm is a lower bound for SS iff −m-m is an upper bound for −S-S, and m=inf⁡Sm = \inf S iff −m=sup⁡(−S)-m = \sup(-S). By the theorem applied to −S-S with candidate −m-m: −m=sup⁡(−S)-m = \sup(-S) iff for every ε>0\varepsilon>0 there exists t∈−St \in -S with t>−m−εt > -m - \varepsilon. Writing t=−st = -s for s∈Ss \in S, this says: there exists s∈Ss \in S with −s>−m−ε-s > -m-\varepsilon, i.e. s<m+εs < m + \varepsilon. Substituting back, m=inf⁡Sm = \inf S iff for every ε>0\varepsilon>0 there exists s∈Ss\in S with s<m+εs < m+\varepsilon, as claimed. ■\blacksquare

∎

Worked examples

Example 1 — an infinite, non-symmetric set defined by a rational function. Let

S={3n−1n+2:n∈N}={23,54,85,116,147,… }.S = \left\{ \frac{3n-1}{n+2} : n \in \mathbb{N} \right\} = \left\{ \tfrac{2}{3}, \tfrac{5}{4}, \tfrac{8}{5}, \tfrac{11}{6}, \tfrac{14}{7}, \dots \right\}.

We claim sup⁡S=3\sup S = 3. Step 1: 33 is an upper bound. For n∈Nn \in \mathbb{N},

3n−1n+2≤3  ⟺  3n−1≤3(n+2)=3n+6  ⟺  −1≤6,\frac{3n-1}{n+2} \le 3 \iff 3n - 1 \le 3(n+2) = 3n+6 \iff -1 \le 6,

which is always true. Since n+2>0n+2>0, the equivalence (multiplying both sides by n+2n+2) is valid without flipping the inequality. So every element of SS is ≤3\le 3; 33 is an upper bound. Step 2: the epsilon condition. Let ε>0\varepsilon > 0 be given. We must find n∈Nn \in \mathbb{N} with

3n−1n+2>3−ε.\frac{3n-1}{n+2} > 3 - \varepsilon.

Compute the gap directly:

3−3n−1n+2=3(n+2)−(3n−1)n+2=3n+6−3n+1n+2=7n+2.3 - \frac{3n-1}{n+2} = \frac{3(n+2) - (3n-1)}{n+2} = \frac{3n+6-3n+1}{n+2} = \frac{7}{n+2}.

So the condition 3n−1n+2>3−ε\frac{3n-1}{n+2} > 3-\varepsilon is equivalent to 7n+2<ε\frac{7}{n+2} < \varepsilon, i.e. n+2>7εn+2 > \frac{7}{\varepsilon}, i.e.

n>7ε−2.n > \frac{7}{\varepsilon} - 2.

By the Archimedean Property of R\mathbb{R} (which itself is proved using this same epsilon-of-supremum machinery, and which we may cite here as a standard consequence available once suprema are understood), there exists a natural number nn exceeding any given real number, so in particular exceeding 7ε−2\frac{7}{\varepsilon}-2. Choose such an nn. Then 3n−1n+2>3−ε\frac{3n-1}{n+2} > 3-\varepsilon, as required. Since ε>0\varepsilon>0 was arbitrary, the epsilon condition holds, and by the theorem, sup⁡S=3\sup S = 3. Note that 3∉S3 \notin S (no finite nn makes the equality 7n+2=0\frac{7}{n+2}=0 hold), so this genuinely uses the epsilon criterion rather than simply exhibiting a maximum element.

Example 2 — a set defined by a bound on a two-variable condition (bounded region). Let

S={x∈Q:x2<5, x>0}.S = \{ x \in \mathbb{Q} : x^2 < 5,\ x>0\}.

We claim sup⁡S=5\sup S = \sqrt5. Step 1: 5\sqrt5 is an upper bound. If x∈Sx \in S then x>0x>0 and x2<5=(5)2x^2 < 5 = (\sqrt5)^2. Since both xx and 5\sqrt5 are positive and the squaring function is strictly increasing on [0,∞)[0,\infty) (if 0≤a<b0 \le a < b then a2<b2a^2 < b^2, and conversely a2<b2a^2<b^2 with a,b≥0a,b\ge0 forces a<ba<b — this is a routine consequence of factoring b2−a2=(b−a)(b+a)b^2-a^2=(b-a)(b+a) with b+a>0b+a>0 when not both zero), x2<(5)2x^2 < (\sqrt5)^2 with x,5>0x,\sqrt5 > 0 gives x<5x < \sqrt5. So 5\sqrt5 is an upper bound for SS. Step 2: the epsilon condition. Let ε>0\varepsilon>0. We may assume ε<5\varepsilon < \sqrt5 (if the condition holds for small ε\varepsilon it automatically holds for larger ε\varepsilon, since the required point only needs to clear a lower bar 5−ε\sqrt5-\varepsilon; so WLOG shrink ε\varepsilon). We must produce a rational x>0x>0 with x2<5x^2<5 and x>5−εx > \sqrt5 - \varepsilon. Consider y:=5−ε2y := \sqrt5 - \tfrac{\varepsilon}{2}, a real number with 0<y<50 < y < \sqrt5. By the Density of the Rationals in the Reals (again, a theorem whose own proof uses this same epsilon technique, cited here only as a downstream consequence, not circularly assumed for this theorem), there is a rational number xx with

y<x<5.y < x < \sqrt5.

Then x>0x > 0 (since y>0y>0 forces x>y>0x>y>0), and x<5x < \sqrt5 gives x2<5x^2 < 5 by the same monotonicity of squaring on positives used above. So x∈Sx \in S. Moreover x>y=5−ε/2>5−εx > y = \sqrt5 - \varepsilon/2 > \sqrt5 - \varepsilon. This xx satisfies the epsilon condition for this ε\varepsilon. Since ε>0\varepsilon>0 was arbitrary, the epsilon criterion holds, and by the theorem sup⁡S=5\sup S = \sqrt5. This example is important precisely because 5∉S\sqrt5 \notin S — the supremum is irrational while SS consists only of rationals, so there is no "obvious largest element" to point to; the epsilon criterion is the only available route.

CounterexampleDropping nonemptiness breaks the theorem

The theorem requires S≠∅S \ne \emptyset. Here is what fails if we allow S=∅S = \emptyset. Take S=∅S = \emptyset and let M=0M = 0. Vacuously, M=0M=0 is an upper bound for SS: the statement "s≤0s \le 0 for all s∈∅s \in \emptyset" is true because there is no s∈∅s \in \emptyset to violate it. In fact every real number is an upper bound for ∅\emptyset by the same vacuous reasoning. Now test the epsilon condition at M=0M=0: for every ε>0\varepsilon>0, does there exist s∈S=∅s \in S = \emptyset with s>−εs > -\varepsilon? No such ss exists, since SS has no elements at all. So the epsilon condition fails for every ε>0\varepsilon>0 — vacuously and completely, since there is no element of SS to test. By the theorem's own logic (the contrapositive direction used in the proof), failure of the epsilon condition should mean M=0M=0 is not the least upper bound: some strictly smaller upper bound should exist. Indeed it does — M′=−1M' = -1 is also an upper bound for ∅\emptyset (vacuously), and −1<0-1 < 0. But by the same reasoning M′=−1M'=-1 is also not least, since −2-2 is a smaller upper bound, and so on forever. There is no least upper bound of ∅\emptyset in R\mathbb{R} at all: the set of upper bounds of ∅\emptyset is all of R\mathbb{R}, which has no minimum. So for S=∅S=\emptyset, sup⁡S\sup S simply does not exist as a real number, and correspondingly the epsilon condition can never be satisfied by any candidate MM (the same vacuous failure occurs no matter what MM we test). The biconditional in the theorem becomes vacuous or ill-posed rather than false in a subtle way — but the intended conclusion "M=sup⁡SM=\sup S" is simply unavailable, which is exactly why the hypothesis S≠∅S \ne \emptyset is written into the theorem instead of being an afterthought. This is the standard convention: sup⁡∅\sup \emptyset is undefined in R\mathbb{R} (or by convention set to −∞-\infty in the extended reals, a separate bookkeeping device outside the scope of this theorem).

Scope, edge cases & common traps

SituationWhat happens
SS nonempty, bounded aboveTheorem applies exactly as stated.
S=∅S = \emptysetNo supremum in R\mathbb{R}; epsilon condition vacuously unsatisfiable — see counterexample.
SS unbounded aboveNo real upper bound MM exists to test in the first place; theorem doesn't apply (relevant instead to the Archimedean Property discussion of unboundedness).
M∈SM \in S (max exists)Epsilon condition still literally applies and holds (take s=Ms = M itself for every ε\varepsilon), consistent with max⁡S=sup⁡S\max S = \sup S when a maximum exists.
Testing only some ε\varepsilonInsufficient — must hold for every ε>0\varepsilon>0, not just small ones or one fixed one.
Confusing ≥M−ε\ge M-\varepsilon with >M−ε> M - \varepsilonEither strict or non-strict inequality version works and both are logically equivalent formulations (shifting ε\varepsilon by a factor of 2 converts one to the other), but be internally consistent; the proof above used strict >> throughout.

The mathematician behind it

Origins · 1 minRichard Dedekind and how this was discovered
RD
Richard Dedekind
1831–1916 · Foundations of the real numbers, Braunschweig and Göttingen

Dedekind, working in Germany in the 1850s–70s, was troubled that calculus textbooks used facts about continuity and limits of real numbers that were never actually proved from first principles — they were borrowed from geometric intuition. He set out to construct the real numbers from the rationals rigorously, via what are now called Dedekind cuts, and to derive completeness (the existence of suprema) as a theorem about that construction rather than an assumption. The epsilon-style reasoning used to certify a supremum — showing no smaller candidate can be an upper bound by exhibiting elements arbitrarily close from below — is exactly the kind of argument his construction was built to support and validate.

History
- 1858: Dedekind, dissatisfied with existing treatments of continuity in calculus lectures, begins developing the idea of a "cut" of the rationals to define real numbers rigorously.
- 1872: Dedekind publishes Stetigkeit und irrationale Zahlen ("Continuity and Irrational Numbers"), introducing Dedekind cuts and proving the completeness of the resulting real number system.
- 1872: Georg Cantor, working independently and in the same year, publishes an alternative construction of the reals via Cauchy sequences of rationals, arriving at an equivalent complete ordered field.
- 1890s–1900s: The epsilon–delta and epsilon-approximation style of argument, already used by Weierstrass for limits and continuity, becomes standard for handling suprema and infima in analysis texts.
- 20th century: The epsilon characterization of suprema becomes a fixture of the standard undergraduate real analysis curriculum, appearing as the working criterion in essentially every textbook treatment following completeness (e.g., Rudin, Abbott, Spivak).
Why isn't it enough to just say "no number smaller than MM is an upper bound"?

That statement is logically equivalent to leastness, but it is often not directly checkable, because "not an upper bound" is itself an existential claim buried inside a universal one — you'd need to check every candidate smaller number. The epsilon criterion makes the existential claim explicit and puts it in a form suited to construction: given a specific ε\varepsilon, you build or locate a specific element of SS. This is exactly the difference between knowing an object exists abstractly and having a method to exhibit it, which is what makes the epsilon form the practical tool used in real proofs.

Does the epsilon condition need to produce a different ss for every ε\varepsilon, or can one ss work for all ε\varepsilon at once?

In general a different (and typically closer) element is needed as ε\varepsilon shrinks, and the criterion only requires this dependence — it does not demand a single universal witness. If some fixed s0∈Ss_0\in S did satisfy s0>M−εs_0 > M-\varepsilon for every ε>0\varepsilon>0, that would force s0≥Ms_0 \ge M, hence s0=Ms_0 = M (since MM is an upper bound), meaning M∈SM \in S and M=max⁡SM = \max S. That special case does happen (e.g. finite sets), but it is not required in general, as Examples 1 and 2 both show.

How does this relate to the definition of a limit?

Structurally they are the same kind of statement: both assert that a quantity can be made arbitrarily close to a target by an appropriate choice, quantified as "for every ε>0\varepsilon>0 there exists ... such that ...". For monotone increasing bounded sequences, in fact, the limit equals the supremum of the sequence's range, and the epsilon-of-supremum criterion translates verbatim into the epsilon–NN definition of the limit. This is not a coincidence — the completeness of R\mathbb R via suprema is precisely what guarantees such limits exist in the first place.

Is there a version of this for the maximum of a set, and how does it differ?

If SS has a maximum element M=max⁡SM = \max S, then M∈SM \in S and MM is automatically the supremum, so the epsilon criterion holds trivially (take s=Ms=M for every ε\varepsilon). The epsilon criterion becomes genuinely necessary precisely when no maximum exists — when the supremum is a boundary value approached but never attained, as in both worked examples above where 3∉S3 \notin S and 5∉S\sqrt5 \notin S. The criterion is the tool that handles exactly this "approached but not attained" situation, which is the typical and most important case in analysis.

Why does the proof need both directions, and are they really independent arguments?

Yes — this is a biconditional ("if and only if"), so both implications must be proved, and they use genuinely different contradiction setups. The forward direction assumes M=sup⁡SM=\sup S and derives the epsilon property by showing M−εM-\varepsilon can't be an upper bound (else it would violate leastness of MM). The reverse direction assumes the epsilon property and derives leastness by showing any smaller candidate M′M' gets "outrun" by some element of SS. Skipping either half would leave the equivalence unproved; conflating them is a common but avoidable proof-writing shortcut that risks circularity.

Does this theorem depend on the Completeness Axiom, or is it independent of it?

The theorem itself is a biconditional characterizing when a given candidate MM equals the supremum; it does not assert that a supremum exists. So the theorem is a statement of ordered-field logic, true in any ordered field, and does not by itself invoke completeness. Completeness (the Completeness Axiom) is what you need separately, beforehand, to guarantee that some M=sup⁡SM=\sup S exists at all for a nonempty bounded-above set of real numbers — in the rationals, for instance, plenty of nonempty bounded-above sets (like {x∈Q:x2<5}\{x\in\mathbb Q: x^2<5\} from Example 2) have no supremum in Q\mathbb{Q} at all, even though the epsilon criterion logic itself is unaffected.

Before this

Where this leads